Interview - Mwalimu Julius Nyerere

1 June 1998
Alliance magazine

In Africa peace, unity and people-centred development are inextricably linked. The newly established Mwalimu Nyerere Foundation will aim to promote dialogue in these areas. Caroline Hartnell talked to Mwalimu Nyerere about who would be involved in that dialogue and in the process of development in Africa.

The Nyerere Foundation has been set up as a permanent tribute to you. What do you hope it will achieve?

As a founder leader of my country, I was interested in the development of the continent, the unity of the continent, and the link between that and the peace of the continent. So really because we need the development -- Africa is now the poorest area of the world -- and because that agenda is there, the agenda of unity, the agenda of peace, perhaps the Foundation can make some kind of contribution to the dialogue in these areas.

One of the objectives of the Foundation is people-centred development. Can you say a bit more about what you mean by ‘people-centred development’?

Well, this has always been a belief of mine, that we can talk about development ‘in the air’ so it is development of things, rather than development of people. Our development requires that we build roads and factories and so forth. You know that we have to have growth. And we now talk of development in terms of GNP and we say this country is developing because its GNP is x, and another one is not developing well because its GNP is lower than that. We’ve always said ‘Yes, fine; the building of roads is right’, but how does this relate to the well-being of the people? Because development must really concern the well-being of the people -- that’s number one.

Secondly, it has always been my belief that you can’t develop people -- poor people have to develop themselves. So how are people developed? How do people relate to the decisions that are made about the development of a country, the development of a community? Who makes these decisions, how are the people involved? This is what I mean. That people must be involved in the decision-making in areas which concern their own lives, and development has to be about the well-being of a people. And because that is not always so, this needs to be said all the time.

How do you see the three key objectives of peace, unity and people-centred development as being linked together?

Well, in Africa they are very linked. In the sense that how can you have development without peace? And also how can you have peace without development? Especially the kind of development I’m talking about. You can’t have peace, in any country, in my view, without justice because I believe peace is a product of justice. Therefore, if your development is not people-centred, you can produce wealth while at the same time you’re producing poverty. But this creates social tension in the community and then you cannot have peace. That’s why I’m saying ‘people-centred development’ because peace and justice have to go together. So those are linked, and in the case of Africa, of course, some of these countries are so small and vulnerable, so unviable, that I can’t see how you can have development without these countries working together in some way. Either they cooperate economically or they move even beyond economic cooperation. Unity is necessary for the development of the continent, necessary for peace I think also.

So perhaps you should have added justice as a fourth objective?

Well, I’m putting justice into people-centred development. That covers it, that contains my justice for me.

These are very large aims that the Foundation has. How do you think that you can attempt to promote them?

I don’t believe the Foundation can really achieve these objectives. We can articulate them, we can help governments to think about them – we don’t want governments to forget about justice. I keep on saying in my own country that one of the things we need is to have a dialogue about development. So if we can stimulate dialogue about development, that is a help.

I hope we can play a role in getting, for instance, East Africa or the southern countries of Africa -- that’s actually where my own thinking is concentrated at present – to discuss together. And not simply the governments of these countries. I think we can also stimulate community thinking and community working together. People being involved. In East Africa, where we had a very advanced structure of organized economic cooperation – the ‘East African Community’ -- I believe one of the reasons why we lost the initiative was that it was very much an official initiative. The governments and the bureaucracy were building this unity. It did not involve the people very much. I think we need to involve the people at different levels.

The Foundation’s literature talks about governments, people and local institutions being involved in this dialogue. Do you see the business sector as playing any part?

Yes -- certainly. I can’t see in the modern world any kind of development that doesn’t involve the business sector, the business community and, in a sense, I think now there is no way in which we can push unity on the continent without involving the business community. I keep on saying, in Europe the business community is more positively pushing about unity than the politicians. The politicians are the conservatives, they’re the ones who are very nationalistic, but the business community pushes for unity. I think what is true in Europe is going to be true in Africa also. The business community will have to play their own role in demanding the wider markets, for instance. I think it is the business community which is going to be pushing the governments.

Looking at the process of development in Africa, know you focus a lot on the importance of African countries getting together and doing it themselves and not having their agenda dictated from outside, but do you see countries outside Africa as having any part to play in the process?

They will, but I believe, myself, their part is going to be limited. People emphasize a great deal that ‘these countries’ must attract foreign direct investment, for instance. I keep on saying that there is a limit to this, especially in Africa now. Foreign direct investment will go to areas where the conditions for making money are ripe. This means big markets -- those are in the process of being created in Africa, they’re not there now.

Eastern Europe has a much more developed infrastructure than any part of Africa, perhaps with the exception of South Africa. The infrastructure has to be a given before the foreign investment can come in. And the skills -- you have to have the skills. Lots of investors move out of Europe or move out of North America and go to Asia. One of the attractive things there is that you’ll get good quality work because the skills are there, but it’s cheaper. You move out of Europe and you get the same kind of work, the training is there. And this you’re not likely to find in many parts of Africa. In Africa, when it comes to minerals, it’s different: if in Tanzania some investor discovered a lot of gold somewhere, they’d come, they’d bring the training and put in the infrastructure -- they’d do the necessary things. But in normal investment, the conditions are simply not there.

But even if that was not true, my own theory is that countries develop themselves, just as individuals develop themselves. The responsibility for developing Africa is an African responsibility. Most of the resources to develop Africa will have to come from Africa. And it is completely wrong for Africans to think that the resources for developing their countries will come from outside Africa. So I urge, I have always urged, a spirit of self-reliance: that every country will have to mobilize its own internal resources to the maximum and the countries of Africa will have to cooperate to the maximum and enhance their capacity to develop. The rest of the world will come in, they’ll come in and help. They’ll come in and fit in. But the major effort has to be made locally.

You’ve talked about investment from outside not going in at the moment because the situation isn’t right in terms of infrastructure. But what about foreign aid agencies or foreign foundations, non-profit organizations. Do you see any role for them in Africa?

Yes, they can play a role but it’s always going to be a limited role for us because, frankly, you can’t develop a continent on the basis of charity. So there is going to be a role for the humanitarian organizations, NGOs going in helping individual communities and so forth. This will continue, and I think it’s very useful. But one shouldn’t exaggerate the importance.

How important do you feel education is in contributing to the process of development?

Education is key. Was it in the last election in the United States that President Clinton said, ‘If you ask me priority number one I’ll say education, priority number two I’ll say education, priority number three I’ll say education.’ It isn’t Clinton who should be saying that, it should be heads of government in Africa who should be saying that. Education should be priority number one, number two, number three. You can’t develop those countries without education. This is the key instrument of development, and resources should be spent on education.

Looking back over your very long career in African politics, do you feel the direction in which countries are going now is positive. Rather a large question.

It is a large question. I’m very optimistic about what is happening in Africa now. The continent has gone through stages. We went through the stage when I and my colleagues, those of us who had led the liberation movements, were extremely exuberant and very hopeful about the continent. We went through a period which was no good at all, what I call the neo-colonial period, when soldiers took over the continent, encouraged sometimes, often, by ex-colonial powers. I mention Mobutu as the worst example but Mobutu was not the only one -- we had a lot of these people in West Africa and Central Africa. That phase is going out now. I believe firmly that the phase of these African leaders -- unelected, unaccountable to the population, a bunch of looters -- that age is on the way out now.

A new leadership is coming out in Africa, very confident about themselves, and I think they are going to be accountable to the population; they are part of the population and they want to help the development of the continent. If you look at the continent of Africa and see what is happening, there is a completely new development there. The governments are different kinds of government. We still have pockets -- we have Somalia, that’s a question mark, and you have other question marks that I’m not going to mention -- but there is the whole of a chunk of Africa, from the Red Sea to Cape Town and now from Dar es Salaam right across to the Atlantic, to the new Congo. If the Democratic Republic of Congo holds, if the promise that the Congo is to the rest of us, if that actually proves to be correct, then there is a tremendous positive change taking place and that will mean a lot.

Known throughout Africa as ‘Mwalimu’ – the Swahili word for teacher – Julius Nyerere was the first President of the United Republic of Tanzania after Tanganyika and Zanzibar united to form one sovereign state in April 1964. He was re-elected as President four times but refused to stand again in 1985. Since leaving office he has continued to work for the principles he had always espoused. In 1987 he became Chairman of the South Commission, set up to look at the developmental problems of the South and what the South can do to solve them. Since 1990 he has been Chairman of its successor organization, the South Centre.

The Mwalimu Nyerere Foundation

The Foundation, set up in 1996 as a permanent tribute to Mwalimu Nyerere, has its main object the promotion of Peace, Unity and people-centred Development. To this end it will seek to promote dialogues within Africa involving governments, peoples and local institutions. Mwalimu himself has agreed to be its first Chairman.

The Tanzanian government has given the Foundation two plots of land in Dar es Salaam. On these it plans to build a headquarters large enough to contain offices, flats and conference facilities which can be leased or rented out to earn income to carry out the Foundation’s objectives.

An Executive Director, Joseph Butiku, has been appointed by Mwalimu, and he is currently working to establish an organizational structure and recruit core staff. While the vision and objectives of the Foundation are clear, its pressing need is to draw up concrete and detailed plans for inaugural programmes which will hopefully attract funds to the organization.

For further information, contact the Mwalimu Nyerere Foundation, 6 Sokoine Drive, PO Box 71000, Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Tel: +255 51 113 431. Fax +255 51 112 790.

Unstable Utopias: The Global Spread of Socialism

At the end of the 19th century, socialism was an idyllic dream among intellectuals. Sixty years later it had become a reality for much of the world. This program describes the expansion of socialist and Communist rule into Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and western Europe—showing the weaknesses that developed in the practice of socialism even as it reached the apex of its popularity. Documenting the ascendancy of Clement Atlee in Britain and the challenges of democratic socialism, the program also surveys Mao’s brutal reign in China, Julius Nyerere’s slide into dictatorship in Tanzania, and a problematic socialist experiment in Israel. (58 minutes)

To watch the video click here
Tanzania & Nyerere part begins at the 28th min.

GM's Plans for East Africa

Fears Of Rape In Kenya's Slums 'Trap Women'

Fear of sexual violence is keeping poor Kenyan women away from communal toilets, and increasing the risk of disease, Amnesty International says.

In a report on Kenya's slums, the human rights group said women and girls were afraid to leave their shacks at night.

As a result they were risking contracting diseases such as dysentery and cholera, the report said.

60% of Nairobi residents, about two million people, live in slums with limited access to water and sanitation.

READ MORE FROM SOURCE

CONGO: RAPE OF A NATION

Is Britain Responsible For Continuous Hunger and Poverty In Africa?

Belief In Witchcraft In Tanzania Is The Highest In Africa

The Pew Research Center has just released one of the biggest ever studies on attitudes to religion and morality in Africa, which has revealed a host of interesting facts.

Here are 10 things we have learnt from the study, which surveyed 25,000 people in 19 countries.

1. 75% of South Africans think polygamy is "morally wrong" - bad news for their president, as Jacob Zuma took his third wife earlier this year and is engaged to a fourth. However, the survey also revealed some possible double-standards. While only 7% of Rwandans approved of polygamy (although this did include women), a rather higher number - 17% - of men said they had more than one wife.

2. An overwhelming majority of respondents disapproved of homosexual behaviour. In three countries - Zambia, Kenya and Cameroon - this was a massive 98%. Interestingly, one of the countries with the highest numbers of people - 11% - accepting homosexuals is Uganda, where an MP is trying to get legislation passed which would punish homosexual acts with life in prison and even death in some cases. The former Portuguese colonies of Guinea-Bissau and Mozambique were also relatively tolerant of homosexuality.

3. Africa is probably the world's most religious continent, with more than 80% saying they believed in God in most countries. At least half of the Christians questioned expect Jesus Christ to return to earth during their lifetimes. In Ethiopia, 74% of Christians say they have experienced or witnessed the devil or evil spirits being driven out of a person and in Ghana, 40% of Christians say they have had a direct revelation from God. About half of all Muslims expect to see the reunification of the Islamic world under a single ruler, or caliph, in their lifetimes.

4. Zimbabwe, where the Lemba people say they are the lost tribe of Israel, was not one of the countries surveyed. But 26% of Nigerian Christians said they traced their origins back to Israel or Palestine.

5. Belief in witchcraft is also common - about 40%; a similar percentage also visit traditional healers to cure sickness. Belief in witchcraft is highest in Tanzania with 93% - this is the country where witchdoctors say that magic potions are more effective if they contain body parts of people with albinism. Ethiopia had the lowest levels of belief in witchcraft - at just 17%. Belief that juju or sacred objects can prevent bad things happening was generally lower - between 20 and 30%. In Senegal, however, 75% thought such things worked - far higher than in Tanzania (49%). It may come as a surprise to learn that South Africa had the highest number of people - 52% - saying they took part in ceremonies of traditional religions, or honoured or celebrated their ancestors.

6. Predictably, there was also a religious split concerning alcohol, banned by Islam. Surprisingly, however, more Muslims in Chad (23%) approved of booze, than Ethiopian Christians (5%).

7. Attitudes to divorce showed a strong divide along religious lines in Nigeria. A massive 79% of Christians thought it was "morally wrong", while among Muslims, a narrow majority (46-41%) accepted divorce.

8. In recent years, Islamist hardliners in Somalia and Nigeria have introduced strict punishment based on Sharia law, such as amputating the hands of thieves and even stoning to death for adultery. The majority of people disapproved of such Sharia punishments. In Nigeria, they were backed by about 40% of Muslims and less than 10% of Christians. However, a majority did approve of whippings and amputations in Senegal and Mali. In nearby Guinea-Bissau, even 50% of Christians backed them. This was double the rate among Muslims in Ethiopia (25%) - maybe it feels like a more realistic prospect to them, as they share a border with Somalia and most Muslim Ethiopians are ethnic Somalis.

9. The survey also asked about material well-being in the world's poorest continent. Not so long ago, Cameroon regularly topped surveys of champagne consumption per head. However, a shocking 71% of Cameroonians surveyed said there were times in the past year when they did not have enough money to buy food. In Ethiopia, which is commonly seen as a country struggling to feed itself, the rate was far lower - at 30% - the lowest of all countries surveyed.

10. Ethiopia did, however, have the lowest numbers of people - 7% - who said they regularly used the internet. Rwanda's President Paul Kagame is striving to turn his country into Africa's answer to Silicon Valley and is being helped by the arrival of several new fibre optic cables off the east coast of Africa. He will be encouraged by the finding that 30% of his countrymen - the highest number - regularly browsed the web. Mobile phones, were far more common - with 81% of respondents in Botswana owning one. Many countries reported more than 50% having phones but here, Rwanda lagged behind at just 35%.

Story from BBC NEWS:

In The Wake Of Terreblanche's Death- How Deep Is Division In South Africa?